Target MBA - GMAT Vs. CAT @ DCE Alumni Network

TARGET MBA : GMAT Vs CAT

These are excerpts from a mail written by Sridhar Narayanan (Electrical 1995 and alumni of Graduate School of Business, University of Chicago).

About the choice between IIMs and an MBA here in the US - it would depend on several factors . . .

1. Personal needs/desires - living in India or in the US (though some students from Indian institutes are now in the US, if that is an aim, it would be better to do an MBA here).

2. Financial capabilities/limitations - there is very little funding for business studies since that is the cash cow for most univs. A few univs at the very top (I know of only Harvard, Wharton and Chicago) give loans to foreign students as well. But otherwise, loans are not available to foreign students from any sources in the US (you might get a loan from a bank in India, but it would cover less than 25% of the cost).

3. Ambition vs. security needs - There is no doubt that the field is much wider and opportunities greater in the US, specially at a top school. On the other hand, security is very low. Foreign students have to be outstandingly better than local students to get an equivalent job. That is not to say that Indian students don't do well, they do. But it would mean a lot of effort and tension as well. Even the best students go through some tension. And the unlucky ones who do not make it are left nowhere. On the other hand, the IIMs offer very great security. A decent job is assured and if you put in effort and are lucky, you can even equal the achievements of people who have done MBAs from the best univs here.

4. Time horizon - You have correctly identified that you need to work 2-3 years before even being able to apply here. The IIMs etc. accept a large number of students without work ex. The main disadvantage of the work-ex option is that it is very easy to get out of the academic bent of mind and then get stuck. Marrriage/girlfriend etc. sometimes comes as a barrier. It may also be harder to get back to taking exams, filling in application etc. Again, certainly possible - I came here after 3 years of work ex. But you need to be sure you can committ yourself to the required effort after 2-3 years.

5. Ease - the MBA programs here are definitely much easier compared to the Indian programs. GMAT is easier, the admission process is easier (no GDs, nerve-wracking interviews, much less competition). The program itself is also much easier. I myself am not in the MBA program (am doing a PhD) but I have been a Teaching Assistant for several courses and of course keep meeting several MBA students. The courses are easier, the students are not as bright. They work very hard here, but at the good institutes in India, they work hard too. In sum, easier life here. Of course, a good life after that is only assured after an MBA from a top school. Otherwise, there are hundreds of schools here and foreign students there can have a tough time. Basically only the top 20 or so is worth it. That may be a bit harder.

6. Competition from India - there is a trend in the last few years of MBAs from the best schools in India applying to the top schools here for a second MBA. Basically a means of getting to the US. Their applications are extremely strong. While there are no quotas in most schools, they would restrict people of a country to a certain level. Therefore, competition for Indians is pretty stiff. As for Engg. they have only heard of IITs here, of which there are hordes of applicants in B-Schools. I am not saying that not having an IIT degree makes it impossible to get it, but the rest of the application has to be extremely strong (GMAT>750, other factors).

In sum, I don't think there are any set rules by which I can advise you one way or the other. You would have to make a decision keeping in mind these and other factors that may come to your mind.

As for me, I am currently a PhD student in marketing. I am here for quite some time, since I have only completed one year and it typically takes 4-5 years to graduate (it is variable since it depends on when you complete your dissertation). After that, I intend to take up an academic position (Prof) in a University, probably in the US.

All the best for whatever you decide to do.

Ciao,

Sridhar Narayanan
Graduate School of Business
University of Chicago

I was a taken a little aback by the article on Gmat and CAT. I wouldn't want to critique any comment in that but would definitely like to differ on some of the views I have that are a bit removed from the author's.

Time Horizon: It's time that IIM starts assigning value to work-experience. What you finally get is a person not knowledgible enough to integrate the business ideas at workplace. so workex needs more stress than 'academic bent', for MBA is all about understanding value areas and making relationships - with your likes, the industry and of course with other ppl(networking). and these days it certainly is a 4 year plus as required by any top 10, esp for Indians who contribute a pretty big english speaking intellectual pool. GMAT is also pretty difficult - more analytical than the CAT. and you have interviews everywhere (the top schools) and they are damn gruelling. and there are so many factors to be considered - GMAT, GPA, Recommendations, Essays, Work-ex, etc... a variety of parameters that it becomes difficult to track your loose ends.. when I didn't get at wharton, the feedback that I received was that I lacked work ex...I had like a 98 percentile GMAT so it was certainly not my GMAT or any single fixed entity that determined my comfort level in getting into a school - the other parameters also contributed equally. At the same time, I certainly feel that IIMs are pretty tough too to get in but I am in no position to draw any conclusion as to which is 'more' difficult.

Ease - MBA programs are much more difficult in the US than those in India - that's what one of my classmates from IIM(A)(who has done his MBA at IIMA) says. today was my second day here and things have already started moving kinda fast. The mba programs are also much more effort-requiring than the MS programs in the US. And students are much brighter, for sure - they have to be brighter and much maturer - they have more work related analytical and decision making experience for sure and that is what matters to the industry. I amn't so sure about the PhD programs though. They are also very difficult to get in, I guess.
and the inside news - there are roundabout quotas not fixed but somewhat - most of the schools don't like more than 7-8 Indians (low strength schools like anderson, haas, darden, tuck, fuqua, stanford- typically a class of 300-350 students) to maybe 12-13 in greater strength schools(Harvard, wharton, Columbia, etc - class of 700-800 students). and the indian applicants can go upto 500-600 managerial-level or project-leader-level aspirants for the 5-6 seats and it's very difficult to say as to what in your application gets liked by the univ. It is for sure not the gmat or any one thing in particular. it's the totality of the candidacy.

Shiladitya Niyogi <sniyogi@anderson.ucla.edu, shiladityan@yahoo.com>
Civil Engineering, 1997 Los Angeles, USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001

This is in reference to the message posted by Shiladitya Niyogi a couple of days ago.

As for the views I have expressed, they are based on personal experience and may not fully represent reality. I did an MBA in India, at FMS, which had an easier life than some of the IIM (except IIMC). And while I am doing a PhD here in Chicago, I have been teaching assistants to several MBA level courses, and have several friends amongst the MBA students, some of whom have done their MBAs in India before.

Let me clarify what I mean by life being easier in the MBA programs here compared to the MBA programs in India and also about GMAT vs. CAT

1. I have taken both GMAT and CAT and have been through the experience of receiving calls both from IIMC/IIML/FMS as well as Universities here (though for a PhD). The ratio of acceptance to applications at Indian institutes and the institutes here are in different leagues altogether. For instance, about 1,00,000 students apply for the IIMs and 1000 make it. A top school here has a ratio of 10-20% for their MBA programs(see the Business week site for more accurate acceptance ratios). Secondly, the difficulty level of the tests themselves are very different. Anybody who has taken both these tests would vouch for the fact that the GMAT is easier than CAT.

2. People here are extremely competitive and hard working. In that sense, life may be harder here. However, in terms of difficulty level of the courses themselves, I believe they are much easier in the US. Firstly, a typical quarter has about three (and in rare cases four) courses in most US schools. Typically in the IIMs, students take about 4-6 courses in the trimester. Even in our supposedly relaxed FMS schedule, we have 8 courses per semester, which has further increased since I graduated. Secondly, because of the high diversity of students backgrounds here (as compared to India where 80-90% are engineers), the level of mathematics, analytical ability, critical thinking ability, and in general the academic level of the students in general is not of the same league as in the Indian institutes. Therefore, Professors make extra efforts to tone down the difficulty level of the courses, particularly in the first year. Believe me, I have taken tutorial sessions for the MBA students.

3. I would disagree with Niyogi in the difficulty level of MBA courses being more than the MS programs. I believe, at least in academic level, the MS and PhD courses are pretty tough. The reason for that is that students who come into these courses are not necessarily there for the career (and money) it gives them in future. Hence, in general, a greater proportion of students in MS programs are academically inclined and hence the average level of the class is higher. Professors are also not in a spoon-feeding mode (that they are for MBA courses) since these programs are not subject to the rankings process that the MBA programs are.

The main stress in the MBA programs here (at least for most Indian students I have met) is not in the academic level of the courses, but the extremely stressful job-search process.

Overall, I stand by the views that I expressed in my earlier email that is in the Nostalgia section (though I did not know it would be put up here).
Sridhar Narayanan <n.sridhar@indiamail.com>
Electrical, 1995 Chicago, IL. USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001

I agree with Sridhar that most of the ppl here are non-engg... which actually makes things tougher for us who don't have much idea as to how to proceed with economics and finance as our core subjects. But I am sure that in the days to come, it wud broaden my narrow quant and analytical approach into more organizational horizons. Maybe a reason why IIM(A) is better than IIM(C).....for its techniques of course integration and teamworking stand quite ahead of the latter.
But , at the same time I disagree with Sridhar that Business schools are more spoon-feeding. I am sure that when u have difficulties and u go to a TA it doesn't mean spoon-feeding...after all nobody is supposed to be real good at everything...such comments look good from a 7 grader who always has a propensity to say "i never face problems as I am so smart" ...but otherwise I am sure each one of us had some weakness areas somewhere down our memory lanes. and also don't tell me that the Grad institutions for MS are least bothered about their rankings....lots of articles get written down on their ranks...that area still remains an unvisited one for me - so i don't have much stories to tell u

Shiladitya Niyogi <shiladityan@yahoo.com>
Civil Engg, 1997 Los Angeles, USA - Sunday, October 14, 2001

It has been extremely difficult to recuperate from the pressure of the second week. And I am here not to defend the US MBA style or to show that IIMs don't stand out that much. I just want to kind of cover as to what things are different and what are the strength areas of the American way and the desi ishtyle.
First of all, comparing a Top 10 American B school with a top 10 Indian is like comparing Daler mehandi(of my state - proud to be a bihari) with the backstreet boys...or maybe Shobha Mudgal with Madonna. And also acknowledge that IIMA was itself created with Harvard Business School's help .... Though the quality of students might be as good ... but the question as to whether they are 'better' seems not only dubious but highly ludicrous. I don't know why I have to spend my time to defend the american Top B schools. It might be that because we all (indians) suffer from an acute 'I-did-the-best' or 'I-am-doing-the-best' syndrome. And this makes the Indians not only so very difficult smart-ass people on campus but also a whole different ball game in the industry. We should try and be careful assessors of what other countries are upto and what different things they have to offer...how can we improve ourselves ...since improvement is a continuous process and no matter what height we reach perfection is still miles to go ..

I wouldn't believe as to what Business week has to say as Sridhar points out ...'coz that gives percentages of american citizens....and not internationals...the internationals form a different grouping altogether the results of which are never published ...coz all the magazines that publish the ranks are generally american and they write from the perspective of an american aspirant...as for the Indians - which is a highly qualified (even more than the americans in quite a few cases) the approximate ratio is 500-600 applicants of which 5-6 are chosen.
and for the MS being so difficult...I am totally in disagreement. let's ask people who have done both...since I haven't done an MS ...I am sure I won't be the best person to say so.

I am just attaching links to a few sites so as to give you an impression of how rankings are decided and which schools to choose if you ver plan to go ahead with an MBA (FT talks about International MBA...see if that is of any help):

Forbes:
http://www.forbes.com/legacy/forbes/2000/0207/6503100tab2_table.shtml

FT
http://career.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3BJFXTFOC&live=true

BW
http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/00/

USNews
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/beyond/gradrank/mba/gdmbat1.htm
entrepreneurship
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/beyond/gradrank/gbmbasp6.htm
strategy
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/beyond/gradrank/gbmbasp2.htm
Finance
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/beyond/gradrank/gbmbasp3.htm
Mktg
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/beyond/gradrank/gbmbasp8.htm
MIS
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/beyond/gradrank/gbmbasp4.htm

Success
http://www.successmagazine.com/2_01stories_3/bus_schools_2_01.htm

Industry Std
http://www.thestandard.com/article/0,1902,23346,00.html

Hope that helps..
Take care Ppl,

Shiladitya Niyogi <sniyogi@anderson.ucla.edu>
Civil, 1997 Los Angeles, USA - Sunday, October 14, 2001